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Tory leadership: Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak clash in heated BBC debate – as it happened

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Latest updates: final two candidates exchange blows over plans for cost of living, levelling up and China

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Mon 25 Jul 2022 18.17 EDTFirst published on Mon 25 Jul 2022 04.29 EDT
Key events
Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss during the BBC Conservative leadership debate.
Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss during the BBC Conservative leadership debate. Photograph: Jeff Overs/BBC/PA
Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss during the BBC Conservative leadership debate. Photograph: Jeff Overs/BBC/PA

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My tuppence? The debate was acrimonious, will make stitching back together the parliamentary Tory party in September more difficult, and almost certainly won’t move the dial in the leadership race.

All polling suggests that Truss is well in front with the Conservative membership, so Sunak needs her to somehow sink her own campaign in these debates. And she did not. In fact, she said she wasn’t the slickest media performer, and got one of the few rounds of applause for saying that.

Sunak has staked not raising taxes and not paying off Covid debt as moral questions about piling the burden on to future generations. Truss seemed woollier on the economics, but cites historical precedent on debt after the second world war as a reason to take it slower and expand the economy.

Nobody landed a killer blow. Sunak was as assured as ever, if a bit aggressive and more likely to interrupt his opponent, but Truss avoided disaster. They both said they could work together in the future, but I can’t believe anybody, including them, believed it.

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Key events

Summary of the day …

  • The battle to become the UK’s next prime minister descended into fierce clashes as Rishi Sunak launched repeated attacks on the economic policies of the favourite Liz Truss in their first head-to-head TV debate. The two Conservative leadership hopefuls traded blows over tax cuts, China and inflation, with the former chancellor Sunak accusing the foreign secretary of seeking “a short-term sugar rush” by cutting national insurance. Truss accused her former colleague of raising taxes to their highest level for 70 years. The exchanges at the BBC debate followed a weekend of deeply personal attacks in the contest, including on-the-record criticisms singling out the former chancellor’s wealth and wardrobe, while Truss has faced claims of being economically illiterate and a former remainer. [More here]
  • David Trimble, Northern Ireland’s inaugural first minister and a crucial unionist architect of the Good Friday agreement, has died aged 77. His death on Monday was announced by the Ulster Unionist party (UUP), the party he led into a historic power-sharing arrangement between nationalists and republicans in Northern Ireland. Lord Trimble was the first person to serve in the role of first minister, and won the Nobel peace prize, along with John Hume, leader of the nationalist SDLP party, for their part in negotiations for the Good Friday agreement. He was UUP leader between 1995 and 2005, accepting a life peerage in the House of Lords in 2006. [More here]
  • Downing Street has had to deny that the prime minister, Boris Johnson, intends to cling on to power after the Telegraph published an “exclusive” in which Lord Cruddas said Johnson “does not want to resign” as prime minister and wishes he could “wipe away” his departure.
  • Anger over the Partygate scandal has been reignited after Scotland Yard confirmed that it did not send questionnaires to Johnson before deciding against fining him for attending two Downing Street lockdown gatherings. Fines were issued to other attenders at the gatherings in 2020, including one at No 10 on 13 November, where the prime minister gave a leaving speech for his departing director of communications, Lee Cain, and another in the Cabinet Office on 17 December. [More here]
  • Sunak has said he will stop unions “holding working people to ransom” if he becomes prime minister in response to the announcement that the Transport Salaried Staffs Association union (TSSA) will stage railway strikes on 18 and 20 August.
  • Sunak has challenged Truss to agree to be interviewed by former GB News presenter Andrew Neil after it was confirmed that he will record an interview with Neil for broadcast on Friday.
  • Downing Street said travel delays seen at Dover are not caused by Brexit. It said the problems were down to a combination of factors “including a shortage of French border control staff”. Experts disagree.
  • Keir Starmer has given a speech in which he said promoting growth is now as important for Labour as redistribution, but confusion over the party’s position on the renationalisation of railways and utilities has lingered with several different briefings during the day.
  • Jeremy Corbyn, the former Labour leader, has implicitly criticised the speech. In a series of tweets, Corbyn restated his call for the renationalisation of rail, energy, water and mail, saying Labour needed to offer a “bold alternative”. The Green party has also criticised Labour for abandoning its commitment to renationalising utilities as set out in the 2019 manifesto.

That is it from me, Martin Belam, for the evening. Thank you for following our live coverage, and for all your comments this evening. The UK politics live blog will be back in the morning.

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One of the more curious bits of tonight’s debate was when Liz Truss was directly questioned about saying that British workers are “among the worst idlers in the world” in a book, she for the first time appeared to claim that she hadn’t written that bit. She then said Dominic Raab wrote that chapter, and pointed out that he is supporting her rival for prime minister, Rishi Sunak.

This does not appear to have gone down brilliantly with Raab, who on BBC Newsnight this evening is criticising Truss for shifting her views on debt, as Lewis Goodall points out:

Dominic Raab: “We all took collective responsibility on the [Britannia Unchained] book…we all agreed…the chapter on debt, why it was so damaging for the economy, intergenerational unfairness…we were right then, it’s up to Liz to explain why she’s changed her view.” #newsnight

— Lewis Goodall (@lewis_goodall) July 25, 2022

Truss and Sunak trade blows in acrimonious first TV debate – full report

Here is the full report of tonight’s debate, from Rajeev Syal, Ben Quinn and Jessica Elgot:

The two Conservative leadership hopefuls traded blows over tax cuts, China and inflation, with the former chancellor Sunak accusing the foreign secretary of seeking “a short-term sugar rush” by cutting national insurance. Truss accused her former colleague of raising taxes to their highest level for 70 years.

The exchanges at the BBC debate followed a weekend of deeply personal attacks in the contest, including on-the-record criticisms singling out the former chancellor’s wealth and wardrobe, while Truss has faced claims of being economically illiterate and a former Remainer.

Sunak, widely seen as having to make up crucial ground to win over the Conservative membership, who will vote from 5 August, repeatedly described his opponent’s plans on the economy as “not conservative”, interrupting her at one point to say: “You promised almost £40bn of unfunded tax cuts, £40bn more borrowing.

“That is the country’s credit card. It’s our children and grandchildren … everyone here … who are going to have to pick up the tab for that.”

Truss hit back over Sunak’s calls for a tougher stance on China, pointing out that the Treasury just last month was calling for closer bilateral and economic ties. Sunak accused his opponent of making pronouncements about a “golden era” between China and the UK. “I think that was almost a decade ago,” the foreign secretary snapped back.

Amid reports that Boris Johnson has not yet ruled out a political comeback, despite pledging to step down next month, both candidates also ruled out a role for the current prime minister in any government they might lead.

“I am sure he will have a role. I am sure he will be vocal, but he will not be part of the government,” said the foreign secretary, despite emphasising that she had been an early supporter of Johnson’s. She contrasted her continuing loyalty to him to those of others, adding that “it would have been a dereliction of duty” not to remain in her post.

Read more of our lead story on the debate here: Truss and Sunak trade blows in acrimonious first TV debate

Ben Quinn
Ben Quinn

My colleague Ben Quinn has this report tonight on another major political development that should not be overshadowed by the Conservative leadership TV debate – the death of David Trimble:

David Trimble, Northern Ireland’s inaugural first minister and a crucial unionist architect of the Good Friday agreement, has died aged 77.

His death on Monday was announced by the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP), the party he led into a historic power-sharing arrangement between nationalists and republicans in Northern Ireland.

Lord Trimble was the first person to serve in the role of first minister, and won the Nobel peace prize, along with John Hume, leader of the nationalist SDLP party, for their part in negotiations for the Good Friday agreement. He was UUP leader between 1995 and 2005, accepting a life peerage in the House of Lords in 2006.

Trimble had played a “crucial and courageous role” in the Good Friday agreement negotiations, said Ireland’s Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, who said all in politics at the time had “witnessed his crucial and courageous role.”

Tributes from across Northern Ireland’s political divide and beyond were paid to a politician whose own political journey from hardline unionism to a risk-taking partner with his sworn enemies helped end decades of strife.

Describing Trimble as “a man of courage and vision”, the UUP’s leader, Doug Beattie, said: “He chose to grasp the opportunity for peace when it presented itself and sought to end the decades of violence that blighted his beloved Northern Ireland.”

“He will forever be associated with the leadership he demonstrated in the negotiations that led up to the 1998 Belfast agreement.”

On the nationalist side, the Sinn Féin leader, Mary Lou McDonald, said on Twitter that she was “saddened” to hear of Trimble’s death, adding: “His contribution to building the peace process in Ireland will stand as a proud and living legacy of his political life.”

David Trimble (R) poses with Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams, Social Democratic Labour Party leader John Hume and US President Bill Clinton in the Roosevelt Room of the White House in Washington, in 2000. Photograph: Susan Walsh/AP

Read more of Ben Quinn’s report: David Trimble, key architect of Good Friday agreement, dies aged 77

Here are some verdicts from around social media. The Truss team have been accusing Sunak of interrupting her a lot – saying he did so 22 times in the first 12 minutes. Steven Swinford, political editor at the Times has tweeted to say that a spokesperson for Truss has claimed this shows “Rishi Sunak has tonight proven he is not fit for office. His aggressive mansplaining and shouty private school behaviour is desperate, unbecoming and is a gift to Labour”

A spokesman for Liz Truss claims that Rishi Sunak is not fit for office:

'Rishi Sunak has tonight proven he is not fit for office

'His aggressive mansplaining and shouty private school behaviour is desperate, unbecoming and is a gift to Labour'

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) July 25, 2022

Sunder Katwala has questioned whether there is a right hand/left hand situation going on within the Truss camp.

It seems bizarre for a candidate to say on live television that they would want the rival candidate in their team & for the same candidate's campaign to declare within minutes that that candidate is "not fit for office". Is the candidate responsible for the campaign briefings?

— Sunder Katwala (@sundersays) July 25, 2022

The Labour MP for Walthamstow, Stella Creasy makes the point that Truss during the debate said she had stayed loyal to Boris Johnson. Creasy says “As Liz Truss thinks Rishi Sunak was a mansplaining boorish public schoolboy and that makes someone unfit for office, I imagine she refused to have anything to do with Number 10 under Boris Johnson.”

As Liz Truss thinks Rishi Sunak was a mansplaining boorish public schoolboy and that makes someone unfit for office, I imagine she refused to have anything to do with Number 10 under Boris Johnson.

oh.....🤷‍♀️ https://t.co/pPrKm4C1EU

— stellacreasy (@stellacreasy) July 25, 2022

Pollster Opinium was measuring the reaction to tonight’s debate among “1,000 regular voters” and according to Sky News they put the result at “Rishi Sunak is just ahead at 39%, with Liz Truss at 38%.”

You can tell a little bit about what each campaign think they did well tonight judging by the clips they immediately put out. Sunak’s social media team have gone big on his family backstory, going with “I’m standing here because of the sacrifice and love of my parents” and “They worked day and night, saved and sacrificed to provide a better future for their children.”

“They worked day and night, saved and sacrificed to provide a better future for their children.”

Rishi Sunak tells #BBCOurNextPM how his parents are and will always be an inspiration to him. #Ready4Rishi

Sign up at https://t.co/3cXn1rFhca pic.twitter.com/amzl7tWa77

— Rishi Sunak (@RishiSunak) July 25, 2022

The Truss team have gone for “I’m straightforward, straight-talking and honest. I do what I say I will do. I’ve done it in trade. I’ve done it in the Foreign Office. And I’ll do it as prime minister.”

💬 I'm straightforward, straight-talking and honest.

I do what I say I will do.

I've done it in Trade.
I've done it in the Foreign Office.
And I'll do it as Prime Minister.#LizForLeader#TrustedToDeliver pic.twitter.com/rOdSvqnnTI

— Liz for Leader (@trussliz) July 25, 2022

The clips chosen also talk to some of the massive contradictions in their campaigns. Truss boasts of her record of delivery, while also saying the country needs a complete change in approach from the government she has been part of, while Sunak, who would be one of the wealthiest prime ministers in history, wants to focus on his humble beginnings.

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Snap verdict

My tuppence? The debate was acrimonious, will make stitching back together the parliamentary Tory party in September more difficult, and almost certainly won’t move the dial in the leadership race.

All polling suggests that Truss is well in front with the Conservative membership, so Sunak needs her to somehow sink her own campaign in these debates. And she did not. In fact, she said she wasn’t the slickest media performer, and got one of the few rounds of applause for saying that.

Sunak has staked not raising taxes and not paying off Covid debt as moral questions about piling the burden on to future generations. Truss seemed woollier on the economics, but cites historical precedent on debt after the second world war as a reason to take it slower and expand the economy.

Nobody landed a killer blow. Sunak was as assured as ever, if a bit aggressive and more likely to interrupt his opponent, but Truss avoided disaster. They both said they could work together in the future, but I can’t believe anybody, including them, believed it.

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They both finished with a promise that they could work together in the future in a rather awkward exchange, where Truss pointedly said she would welcome Sunak into her team (but not cabinet) and Sunak … did not.

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Section 9: Quick-fire round

The live blogger’s nightmare.

Is Brexit to blame for delays at Dover: both no

Would you both ban railway strikes: yes

What score would you give Boris Johnson out of 10: Truss said seven, Sunak did a thing where he gave 10/10 for Brexit and the election.

I missed one. I can’t read my own handwriting. I blame the Leeds comprehensive that Truss frequently cites.

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Section 8: Trust in politics

One thing that is good about this debate format? Fewer “worst Kraftwerk tribute band ever” jokes because there are only two of them.

A bad thing? The audience are just not being invited to ask direct questions, which then makes it a bit odd for politicians to respond to them directly.

Truss is going in for the fact that in 2019 we promised not to put up taxes. She says: “I might not be the slickest presenter in the business” but she keeps her promises. There is applause.

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Sunak, who was in government until three weeks ago as the most powerful financial minister, says he wants to be the change the country needs.

Truss says this debate is about who will beat Keir Starmer at the next election.

I had thought the temperature between the two of them had cooled a bit in the last 10 minutes, although Sunak just had another interrupting run at Truss.

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Section 7: Boris Johnson

Truss says she doesn’t think the mistakes that Johnson made – which include being fined for breaking his own Covid rules and appointing Chris Pincher to a senior role – meant he deserved to lose his job and she stayed loyal to the end.

Sunak says Johnson is one of the most amazing politicians he has worked with and he is proud of what they achieved in government.

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